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UKVIKING
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Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 3312
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raroa

Quick lesson in ISO 20000

part 1 contains the required standards.

Everything is uses the word SHALL

for example for Change management

Changes SHALL be approved and then checked and SHALL be implemented in a controlled manner

Since Change Management is within ITIL as part of Best Practice, and ISO 20000 uses the Best Practice concepts of Change Management from ITIL; therefore ISO 20000 uses the ITIL Best Practice model as its core.

part 2 contains the recommended standards

everything uses the word SHOULD

for example change management

scheduling information should be made available to the people affected by the change

The main difference between ISO 20000 and ITIL is that ISO 20000 can be applied to a End-to-End Service which is being provided by a Service Provider - because there has to be an audit to ensure that all of Part 1 is being complied with.

ITIL does not care. It merely provides you with guidance for how you should do things in the 10 disciplines.

You cant have ISO 20000 without having Best Practice in the ITIL disciplines which make up ISO 20000.
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John Hardesty
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Change Management is POWER & CONTROL. /....evil laughter
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raroa
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Joined: Dec 05, 2006
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi John

We are talking in circles here. I know and do not dispute everything you are saying.

ISO20000 is complete. It does not require ITIL. In theory someone could comply with all the "shalls" of ISO20000 and then pass an audit and never have heard of ITIL.

If ITIL vanished tomorrow ISO20000 would be unaffected except to make it harder for people to find advice on how to comply with some of the "shalls".

The day someone writes the ISO20000 "how to" book (with lots of concepts no doubt taken from ITIL) then ITIL will be 100% redundant.
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UKVIKING
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Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 3312
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raroa

DOH! I see where you are coming from now

Yes.. You are right. If you go by ISO 20000, you have to put in Best Practice as per what ISO 20000 demands. If a company did that and never implemented//trained using ITIL per se.; then yes

BTW: Happy Holidays, Bah Humbug and all the other phrase for this time of year
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John Hardesty
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Change Management is POWER & CONTROL. /....evil laughter
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raroa
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Joined: Dec 05, 2006
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You and I are not Americans: we are allowed to say "Merry Christmas" without the armies of political correctness coming for us. Merry Christmas. Very Happy
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m_croon
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Joined: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 262
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merry christmas Cool to you all, and might I just add one little aspect to your discussion:

It is my experience that many organisations still need a low(er) key "methodology" compared to ISO20K that will bring them past lower levels of organisational maturity. Whether this "method" is called ITIL or not is realy not the issue. ITIL is here now, and it will at the same time continue to be challenged, BECAUSE it is not a formal prescriptive method.

ITIL being "only" best practice, and ISO being a formal standard which you either qualify/certify for or not, the latter might just be a step too far for many organisations, for a long(er) period to come. Therefor, these organisations could do with a framework that will guide them to a stage of maturity where they could actually focus on 20K. I'd say ITIL is a pretty good help in doing so, with all it's flaws and all it's advantages.

Obviously, anyone who has knowledge of iso20000 and the commercial drive to "make his own recipe" will be able to rewrite ITIL's best practice for better or for worse, be it descriptive or prescriptive. It has already been done: IPW by Quint Wellington Redwood et all, Microsoft's MOF etc. All with their own addaptations, adding, improving etc. yet all taking major parts from ITIL.

Cheers,

Michiel
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raroa
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Joined: Dec 05, 2006
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IPW is a new one to me, thanks!

I hate comparing anything to ISO900x but we can learn from its lifecycle. it went from a curiousity, to something only the advanced and competitive used, to a standard demanded by govenments and big business, to a default that most organisations meet just to be in business. ISO20000 will follow the same cycle. ITIL may remain as a mechanism to get to certification or it may just disappear ...
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UKVIKING
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Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 3312
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raroa

I am a american. I am an expat

Merry Christmas
Joyeaux Noel
Mele Kalikimaka
God Jul
Happy Holiday
Max Credit Card
Seasons Greetings -
- Cinamon to Your toast
- Nutmeg to your hot chocolate
Happy Holidays
- Boxing Day Blues
- Valetine Day Sweets
- Easter Surprise

and as far as the Politically Correct and 'I dont want to offend ' people - especially politicans and government bureaucrats

F**k the lot... they can kiss my fat a**

I will also say what I want
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John Hardesty
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raroa
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Joined: Dec 05, 2006
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral celebration of the summer solstice holiday, practiced with the most enjoyable traditions of religious persuasion or secular practices of your choice with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all.

I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted Gregorian calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make our country great and without regard to the race, creed, colour, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.

By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms: This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

No trees were harmed in the sending of this message.
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UKVIKING
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Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 3312
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raroa

Thanks for that. I giggle quite a bit on that
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John Hardesty
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Change Management is POWER & CONTROL. /....evil laughter
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7thPillar
Itiler


Joined: Sep 21, 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Great Lakes, North America

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(belatedly) On behalf of the Pagan Communities in the New World, I wish you all the most wonderful holidays. And a special blessing to our friends Down Under celebrating the Litha or Midsummer feasts, while we in the North welcome the pending return of the Sun's Light and Life.
A7

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Yorkie
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Joined: Dec 21, 2006
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again,

It is obvious that a lot of passion exists in getting the relationship right between guidelines and standards, that they are defined and understood. The point made about the maturity of the IT organisation is spot on. ITIL has been updated after more than a decade of 'shelfware' and will exist as long as it needs to as version 3. Auditing is not a gaurantee that quality of service will result. I have experienced suppliers who have succeeded in achieving ISO20K but cannot demonstrate 'The DOing' bit. This is a real problem and threat to the integrity of ISO20K. If organisations can tailor the target of the audit to the polished process path then the benefits in the long term will be lost. I hope you guys in the US take forward Service Management stanfdards and best practice and learn from the failures and difficulties in Europe. There have been many successes also ( not all doom and gloom) but the failures sometimes tell us more about the true valus of something.

An area that needs addressing is the measurement of Service Management in the context of ITIL, the processes being used to deliver quality services. Auditing once a year is not enough, on-going monitirong of process performance is essential to check that everything is on track and mid term adjustments can be made and improvement results observed. More needs to be done in this area; I have come across some organisations using Six Sigma. This has turned alot of people off being very statistical. Others have chosen the Balanced Scorecard route. John Hardesty has captured the gist of the discussion in his focus on Should and Shall. Perhaps Measurement would make a useful Forum Topic?

I wish you all well in your quest for Optimum Service Quality through your chosen path.

And yes Happy Whatever Very Happy
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