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Joined: Sep 16, 2006 Posts: 3118 Location: London, UK
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:59 am Post subject:
Raroa
Quick lesson in ISO 20000
part 1 contains the required standards.
Everything is uses the word SHALL
for example for Change management
Changes SHALL be approved and then checked and SHALL be implemented in a controlled manner
Since Change Management is within ITIL as part of Best Practice, and ISO 20000 uses the Best Practice concepts of Change Management from ITIL; therefore ISO 20000 uses the ITIL Best Practice model as its core.
part 2 contains the recommended standards
everything uses the word SHOULD
for example change management
scheduling information should be made available to the people affected by the change
The main difference between ISO 20000 and ITIL is that ISO 20000 can be applied to a End-to-End Service which is being provided by a Service Provider - because there has to be an audit to ensure that all of Part 1 is being complied with.
ITIL does not care. It merely provides you with guidance for how you should do things in the 10 disciplines.
You cant have ISO 20000 without having Best Practice in the ITIL disciplines which make up ISO 20000. _________________ John Hardesty
ITSM Manager's Certificate (Red Badge)
Change Management is POWER & CONTROL. /....evil laughter
We are talking in circles here. I know and do not dispute everything you are saying.
ISO20000 is complete. It does not require ITIL. In theory someone could comply with all the "shalls" of ISO20000 and then pass an audit and never have heard of ITIL.
If ITIL vanished tomorrow ISO20000 would be unaffected except to make it harder for people to find advice on how to comply with some of the "shalls".
The day someone writes the ISO20000 "how to" book (with lots of concepts no doubt taken from ITIL) then ITIL will be 100% redundant.
Joined: Sep 16, 2006 Posts: 3118 Location: London, UK
Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject:
Raroa
DOH! I see where you are coming from now
Yes.. You are right. If you go by ISO 20000, you have to put in Best Practice as per what ISO 20000 demands. If a company did that and never implemented//trained using ITIL per se.; then yes
BTW: Happy Holidays, Bah Humbug and all the other phrase for this time of year _________________ John Hardesty
ITSM Manager's Certificate (Red Badge)
Change Management is POWER & CONTROL. /....evil laughter
Joined: Aug 11, 2006 Posts: 262 Location: Netherlands
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:57 am Post subject:
Merry christmas to you all, and might I just add one little aspect to your discussion:
It is my experience that many organisations still need a low(er) key "methodology" compared to ISO20K that will bring them past lower levels of organisational maturity. Whether this "method" is called ITIL or not is realy not the issue. ITIL is here now, and it will at the same time continue to be challenged, BECAUSE it is not a formal prescriptive method.
ITIL being "only" best practice, and ISO being a formal standard which you either qualify/certify for or not, the latter might just be a step too far for many organisations, for a long(er) period to come. Therefor, these organisations could do with a framework that will guide them to a stage of maturity where they could actually focus on 20K. I'd say ITIL is a pretty good help in doing so, with all it's flaws and all it's advantages.
Obviously, anyone who has knowledge of iso20000 and the commercial drive to "make his own recipe" will be able to rewrite ITIL's best practice for better or for worse, be it descriptive or prescriptive. It has already been done: IPW by Quint Wellington Redwood et all, Microsoft's MOF etc. All with their own addaptations, adding, improving etc. yet all taking major parts from ITIL.
I hate comparing anything to ISO900x but we can learn from its lifecycle. it went from a curiousity, to something only the advanced and competitive used, to a standard demanded by govenments and big business, to a default that most organisations meet just to be in business. ISO20000 will follow the same cycle. ITIL may remain as a mechanism to get to certification or it may just disappear ...
Joined: Sep 16, 2006 Posts: 3118 Location: London, UK
Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject:
Raroa
I am a american. I am an expat
Merry Christmas
Joyeaux Noel
Mele Kalikimaka
God Jul
Happy Holiday
Max Credit Card
Seasons Greetings -
- Cinamon to Your toast
- Nutmeg to your hot chocolate
Happy Holidays
- Boxing Day Blues
- Valetine Day Sweets
- Easter Surprise
and as far as the Politically Correct and 'I dont want to offend ' people - especially politicans and government bureaucrats
F**k the lot... they can kiss my fat a**
I will also say what I want _________________ John Hardesty
ITSM Manager's Certificate (Red Badge)
Change Management is POWER & CONTROL. /....evil laughter
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Joined: Sep 21, 2006 Posts: 20 Location: Great Lakes, North America
Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:30 am Post subject:
(belatedly) On behalf of the Pagan Communities in the New World, I wish you all the most wonderful holidays. And a special blessing to our friends Down Under celebrating the Litha or Midsummer feasts, while we in the North welcome the pending return of the Sun's Light and Life.
A7
It is obvious that a lot of passion exists in getting the relationship right between guidelines and standards, that they are defined and understood. The point made about the maturity of the IT organisation is spot on. ITIL has been updated after more than a decade of 'shelfware' and will exist as long as it needs to as version 3. Auditing is not a gaurantee that quality of service will result. I have experienced suppliers who have succeeded in achieving ISO20K but cannot demonstrate 'The DOing' bit. This is a real problem and threat to the integrity of ISO20K. If organisations can tailor the target of the audit to the polished process path then the benefits in the long term will be lost. I hope you guys in the US take forward Service Management stanfdards and best practice and learn from the failures and difficulties in Europe. There have been many successes also ( not all doom and gloom) but the failures sometimes tell us more about the true valus of something.
An area that needs addressing is the measurement of Service Management in the context of ITIL, the processes being used to deliver quality services. Auditing once a year is not enough, on-going monitirong of process performance is essential to check that everything is on track and mid term adjustments can be made and improvement results observed. More needs to be done in this area; I have come across some organisations using Six Sigma. This has turned alot of people off being very statistical. Others have chosen the Balanced Scorecard route. John Hardesty has captured the gist of the discussion in his focus on Should and Shall. Perhaps Measurement would make a useful Forum Topic?
I wish you all well in your quest for Optimum Service Quality through your chosen path.
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to you all, and might I just add one little aspect to your discussion:
