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ITIL :: View topic - V3 streams to become an ITIL Expert
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V3 streams to become an ITIL Expert
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aucade
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Joined: Dec 16, 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:15 pm    Post subject: V3 streams to become an ITIL Expert Reply with quote

Hi,

I was just wondering if there are other people here, that are going thru the new V3 streams to become an ITIL Expert?

I`ve just gone thru these courses which are still in the pilot phase:

ITIL® v3 Capability Stream Operational Support and Analysis (Passed)
ITIL® v3 Lifecycle Stream Service Transition (Passed)
ITIL® V3 Foundation (Passed)

Apparently I picked the wrong combination so the training company is giving me the ITIL® v3 Capability Stream Release, Control and Validation and the exam for free.

In January I`ll be going thru the courses

ITIL® v3 Capability Stream Planning, Protection and Optimization
ITIL® v3 Capability Stream Service Offerings and Agreements

and finally in March ITIL® v3 Managing Across the Lifecycle which means my ITIL Expert certification.

My collegue on the other hand decided to do it the easy way over the v2 ITS Manager and then the v3 Bridge. None of the people in her bridge course passed the exam.

Aucade
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DML
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Joined: Nov 23, 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aucade

Good to see that your company has got the money for all that training.

Mind you - I am not entirely sure why you are bothering. Just out of curiosity - why are you trying to get the Expert Certification?
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MVPS
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Joined: Oct 03, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My collegue on the other hand decided to do it the easy way over the v2 ITS Manager and then the v3 Bridge. None of the people in her bridge course passed the exam.


Doing the V2 Manager is definitely not the easy way. As a matter of fact, I am more confident in a V2 Manager than a V3 one...

Regards
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UKVIKING
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Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 3313
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aucade

i am sorry but, i dont think by taking the five exams for V3 that you are an ITIL Expert - regardless of how V3 is marketed

If I recall correctly

Since all of the exams are multiple guess (?) and do not require any abiltiy to explain your understanding of the process, how can you be an Expert

Even those who take the V2 manager's exam are NOT experts - but at least with the hard method of testing the individual's knowledge, the holder of the red badge have a level of expectation and minimal knowledge of ITIL

And as DML said, ... I concur
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John Hardesty
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Change Management is POWER & CONTROL. /....evil laughter
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aucade
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Joined: Dec 16, 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@DML

I`m not trying to get the ITIL-Expert, it`s more the "nice to have" aspect. My company wants me personally to gain v3 knowledge (achieved exams are`nt expected). Also v2 levels will be history at the latest by the end of next year, so why concentrate on it.

@MVPS

Don`t get me wrong, but at the moment I have no confidence in anyone with a badge. Wink

@UKVIKING

I don`t know if you`ve seen the v3 multiple choice exams, but they are not as easy as you`d think. You have 8 scenerios. To each scenerio you have a choice of four answers. The best answer gives you 5 points, the second best 3, the third best 1 and worst answer 0. You need 70% to pass. You don`t have to explain the processes, but you do have to know and understand them to give the right answer.

I don`t believe 7 days studying for 11 processes and a written exam makes you any better than 25 days studying 23 processes, the life cycles, and 5 multiple choice exams. Theory and an achieved level is one thing, adapting and implementing ITIL good practises into a companies best practises is the challenge.

Service Management and ITIL is nothing new. I`ve been in the IT business since 25 years and the socalled "good practises" are just a standardisation of processes, procedures and workflows of the partially unorganised and unmanaged way things have been done in the past. What ITIL/ISO20000/COBIT is doing is just another step into the industrialisation of IT.
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Diarmid
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 1884
Location: Newcastle-under-Lyme

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aucade wrote:
Also v2 levels will be history at the latest by the end of next year, so why concentrate on it.


There are so many ways of saying something.

v2 exams may become "history" soon, but it will be a very long time before the qualification acquires that status. Unless, of course, the world goes completely mad.
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UKVIKING
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Joined: Sep 16, 2006
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Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aucade

The Manager's course is 10 days -

5 8 hour days for Service Delivery for 5 processes
5 8 hour days for Service Support for 5 processes and a function

The exam is 2 3 hour essay exams over 2 days with 5 questions per day

V2 is not dead.

V3 is merely the next step in the organization of the processes

For example change management

in V2 it is in Service Support
in V3 it is in Service Transition

The process itself does not change, just where it fits in the whole process.

The courses and how they are written I dont have a problem with

The exam structure I do have a problem with

The fixed costs in the Foundation (v2) & Practitioner exams are low compared to the cost / time involve with the manager's exams. The costs of getting location, the exam itself and the processing of the answers by graders slows the process down to a crawl. And of course increases the cost for the exam. It is not a high profit item for the

Multiple guess exams however are cheap. Official testing centres that are certified by Prometric or other tetsing bodies. I think Prometric is the big one.

They are usually in Training companys - commercial companys teaching IT course work for Microsoft, Redhat. oracle and of course ITIL and other IT process - PRINCE2, Project mgmt etc.

These companies have a testing room for 1 - 10 people where all the exams that are multiple guess exams - microsoft, etc - can be taken with the only control - the £125 exam fee. There is NO requirement to have taken any training, having any knowledge before hand. The exams use a bank of questions that cover the posted course / exam requirements/ study criteria

There are websites,books etc that tout exam passing - exam cram, cram session etc. However, passing the multiple choice exam does not mean that the exam taker has retained any knowledge of what he / she is beign testign on. It merely means that he guessimate / answered correctly the number of questions needed to pass

This is why you get people who have all the CISCO certification (below CCIE - which is hands on ) who never did any work on a network. I had several staff who held CCNA, CCDA etc who could not even figure out traceroutes or break down a /24 or /30 network into further subnets.

The companies like MS did not do anything for years - thus causing the certification program to have no real value - expect to HR departments. These same companies tried to make changes in the exam - reactive exams that ask you specific questions that get harder and harder.

This, I see, is happening to ITIL. The rush to get every one certified in ITIL foundation - V2 & V3 and further in V3 - has been become merely a financial exercise - a cost to the individual for the course / exam & a profit to the training company providing the course and mainly the low cost / profit for the exam center.

Aucade, taking a multiple guess exam where the questions revolve around pretty flow charts, RACI table and graphs does not test for knowledge on the process - but merely on the ability to memorize the RACI, charts and graphs.

memorization is not the same as acquiring knowledge.

I do note however that the IT is started to be treated as any function in a company is - best practice, standards, etc. Just like Accounting and Finance, human Resources, etc

However, it aint there yet

ISO20000, 27001, ITIL, CoBIT, CMMi, TOGAF, PRINCE2, etc are helping

Oh and I have the same number of years in IT as you do

Unix work in 83/84 for the US government
Unix / network durign the 80s
PC / microsoft during the 90s

etc

You asked this forum about going for ITIL expert.

It appears that you could take all the exams for V3 and not be working in IT and be classified as an ITIL Expert/

That to me is wrong

Real life application of the ITIL processes - v2 or v3 - is what matters in the long run
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John Hardesty
ITSM Manager's Certificate (Red Badge)

Change Management is POWER & CONTROL. /....evil laughter
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aucade
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Joined: Dec 16, 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@UKVIKING

Well I guess there seems to be different Manager course concepts out there. My collegue only had a 7 10 hour days and a 6 hour exam.

Okay now I understand why the exam structure bothers you. I personally don`t see the difference to your example with Cisco certifications and the way some people are getting their service manager certification. That what you pointed out is a general problem. Young people with no working experience in IT are being sent from consulting companies to ITIL training after they just achieved their university degree in computer science. This is general practise in Germany and I figure also in other european countries. That is also the reason why I have no confidence in someone "young" with a badge.

My opinion is that the APMG should apply a policy where you must prove at least 2 years of hands-on experience in IT Service Management based on ITIL before being approved for an ITIL-Expert or Service Manager level.

I agree with you. Real life experience and application is always what matters. Just because I have a recipe does`nt mean I know how to cook. Wink
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UKVIKING
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in the UK

The version 2 ITIL Service Manager's Course (Red Badge) is a 2 week course with a 2 day exam

ISEB does the exam

All the training courses I have seen do it in a 10 day period.

As for everything else, I have cook books and I have recipes.. but I am not a restaurant
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John Hardesty
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Change Management is POWER & CONTROL. /....evil laughter
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MVPS
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Joined: Oct 03, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should be just like PMP.

You HAVE to prove that you have xx years of experience in the field before applying for the exam. You CAN be audited, and if you are, you MUST prove the experience you said you had.

Besides that, you MUST sign a Code of Ethics and anyone at anytime can DENOUNCE you for example if you lied about your previous experience, even if you have been a PMP for 10 or 20 years!

This is certification best practices. OGC should use it.

Anyway, itSMF should be like PMI but it is definitely years away...

Regards
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LizGallacher
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Joined: Aug 31, 2005
Posts: 550
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To pick up on a couple of points
"My opinion is that the APMG should apply a policy where you must prove at least 2 years of hands-on experience in IT Service Management based on ITIL before being approved for an ITIL-Expert or Service Manager level."
- You are STILL supposed to have real experience before sitting the exams (V2 or V3) but this is never really checked.

"These companies have a testing room for 1 - 10 people where all the exams that are multiple guess exams - microsoft, etc - can be taken with the only control - the £125 exam fee. There is NO requirement to have taken any training, having any knowledge before hand. The exams use a bank of questions that cover the posted course / exam requirements/ study criteria"
- After Foundation level, there IS a requirement to have taken an accredited course by an accredited Provider, although this can be CBT etc


Apparently I picked the wrong combination so the training company is giving me the ITIL® v3 Capability Stream Release, Control and Validation and the exam for free.

They have this wrong. Although it is recommended that your points are gained by achieving a balance across the various courses, they realised that this was unenforceable, so now there are no illegal combinations. However, if your training company does not realise that, and is giving yo a free course, take advantage of their ignorance!

Other than that, having sat several of these (I have no choice if I want to be able to earn) I am finding, along with other tutors, that the more you know about a subject, the worse you are likely to do. My marks have varied from extremely high to fail - and the more experience I have in a topic, and the more I have read the book, the worse I am likely to do! Go Figure, as they say.
I agree with all that has been said about the demerits of the multiple choice approaches to testing - even if for no other reason, cheating will be so much easier! There are websites where you can choose the exam - of all sorts, send them proof of your id, someone sits it for you, and you pay when and if they pass.
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ITIL EXPERT
Accredited ITIL and ISO/IEC20000 Trainer and Consultant - Freelance
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DYbeach
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Joined: May 25, 2008
Posts: 413
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That does not inspire confidence from one who is emabrking on the V3 road.
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DYbeach
ITIL V3 Release, Control & Validation,
ITIL V3 Operation SUpport & Analysis
PMI CAPM (R)

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." George Orwell
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DML
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Joined: Nov 23, 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liz,

Sorry - I am behind the times.

You mentioned in your post that the need for a correct combination is no longer required to attain the Expert certification. Is it now the case that all you need to get is the 17pts and then pass the MAL and you get the Expert certification?
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DML
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Joined: Nov 23, 2008
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liz,

Sorry - The point that I wanted to add is that if it is now the case that there are no ‘illegal’ combinations then the official ITIL website is out of date, as it is still talking about the need to achieve a score of 22 points with a ‘balanced selection of v3 subject areas’.

They still have that stupid credit profiler as well!
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LizGallacher
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Joined: Aug 31, 2005
Posts: 550
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The profiler is useful, and certainly the intention is that it should be balanced, but once you get your 17 points, you do MALC, and that gets you your 22 points, and Expert qualification
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Accredited ITIL and ISO/IEC20000 Trainer and Consultant - Freelance
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